There was a recent suggestion via e-mail regarding a topic this person wanted discussed.
So far, if you add up all the costs associated with the golf course you get $287,000 ($170,000 + $107,000 + $25,000)-$15,000. These are the total amount of buying the course, loss from last year, the recent loan from Light Board and taking away the approximately $15,000 for the first payment obligation. There was some back and forth about a month ago regarding the actual membership numbers from last year (106 memberships from an editorial and I believe around 118 from another source), so I am going to round up to 120 memberships, give or take. Divide the $287,000 by 120 and we get $2391.67 per membership.
That is a staggering number. I understand that some of the debt went to capital improvements and such, but the truth of the matter is the debt sustained by the golf course is approximately $2391.67 for every 1 golf membership so far. This seems to be an amenity that serves a few but in turn costs the majority much more.
I have heard some arguments that the golf course increases the value of homes in the area. I believe golf courses, in general, do increase the value of a home. The other side of that argument is the opportunity cost of not continuing the general upkeep that a city needs every year. This may lower home values. I hope not, but it is a factor.
I am glad to see the Rec Board discussing some cost saving matters in their recent meetings. But there is still quite a bit of cost savings that need to be implemented to reduce the $2391.67 dollars lost to every 1 membership.
Same shit different day! Talk about something positive!!!! That's being nice.
ReplyDeleteThese are staggering numbers when looked at like this. Thank you D.O. for pointing out these figures. These are very important figures and I am glad that someone suggested this topic. This is the reason the parks and rec board needs to continue to cut costs and should be working diligently on public relations to increase memberships. After seeing these figures it only makes it more important that these issues are addressed and that action is taken quickly. I do not believe that the majority of tax payers in Dayton want these costs to continue past this year. These things need to continue to be posted and the citizens of Dayton need to be informed of them. Sometimes issues just cannot put be swept under the rug. I know my neighbor who is a business person here in Dayton was discussing this same issue with me yesterday.
ReplyDeleteWhat is it, you don't want to hear about the average citizen of Dayton being robbed by some few golfers that want their country club back and want us to pay for it. Get real this is happening all over our country and people are getting mad as heck. Its a nice day, go out and golf and talk to your buddies about how good you feel stealing from the taxpayers of Dayton. Have a good day.
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing positive when the city council and the parks and rec spend that kind of money on such a few. I hope we get some real answers from the city on how they intend to stop this madness. Defend this Kendra. Get us some real answers.
ReplyDeleteRobbers, Cheats and Thieves, I believe that they in a song lyric. Maybe we can write a song about the people running our city.
ReplyDeleteHarper Valley PTA has already been written, it's about a school board but all the same it
ReplyDeletecould be appropriate. I think that if you look close enough there could be an issue of some sort with everyone. The issue we are looking at here is the cost of the golf course to our taxes. If the Golf course can make it then I will be happy. If it cannot then decisions will need to be made. This is the issue at hand and all of these short nasty little comments will not detour us who feel strongly about our convictions. So thank you to those who read this blog, but feel the need to make silly little comments. This only instills the fight in me to educate and contiue looking at the impact of the Golf course on our taxes. This includes following the city council and the rec boards decision and determinations on this issue
Another way to look at the cost so far is $324.66 for every man, woman, and child in Dayton. Using the 2000 census of 884 residents in Dayton divided into $270,000 that is what it works out to. If you look at per household, again using the 2000 census of 354 households that equals $762.71. Personally, I can find a better way to spend my $324.66 than to fund the golf course. I do realize that the money quoted is not going to the citizens per se. But it does show just how costly this has become.
ReplyDeleteOne side will have there figures, the other side will have there's. It kind of maked me chuckle and think of something said to me at work, "There are no truths, there are no lies; there are just numbers to be minipulated." I think the most objective measure is to look at a cost VS expense sheet with comparisons of the same month last year and projections on the current year.
ReplyDeleteGolf courses do in general increase the values of homes. Certainly we need to pay attention to city upkeep. Amentities, upkeep and employment oportunities, etc. are just some of many things that are needed to attract new families to a town and increase property values.
The Parks and Rec board are working hard and putting in lots of hours. There will be some trial and error. I appreciate their time and effort as I'm sure many of you do to.
I hope the golf course makes it, I really think it will. Hopefully we'll all do better in the future working through this as friends and neighbors in healthy debate. Maybe we'll find something to agree on.
It's great weather. I hope you are all getting out and enjoying it.
Thank you for the info DO and samaddams! I appreciate this blog and all the other posters. This has really helped to get info out about the golf course that we were not hearing before like other potential buyers and the good info that samaddams and DO posted today. I think this helps to give everyone a better understanding of everything that is going on.
ReplyDelete"There are no truth, there are no lies there are just numbers to be manipulated." Now that is quite a phrase. I understand the reason you posted it but, when numbers are manipulated there is a lack of truth. D.O. did not manipulate these numbers. It is a different aspect of looking at them. One that would be looked at if you were doing a feasability study for any business. I agree I hope the golf course does break even or make money. Projections for the current year, are projections. The comparison has to be made at the end of the golf season. Then apples for apples will need to be looked at. With the way that the budget runs from June 31st to July 1st is not an easy indicator in evaluating the golf course. So truthful evaluations will need to be made. I hope whatever the outcome we can agree in the end, in a civil way. I guess I would like to add that manipulations in accounting are easily done and they should not be for the better of either opinion. Thank you everyone for your posts today. The vile posts do not get any of us anywhere.
ReplyDeleteI'm going to agree with Dayton Tiger.
ReplyDeleteYes, I hope you realized that phrase was an attempt at humor and I wasn't suggesting anyone was or is manipulate numbers. The cost per membership and cost per citizen (samaddams) were interesting. You could argue some things that are not figured in are; the largest denominator - greens fee payers, family memberships have more than one golfer per membership, tournament players, etc. Another argument could be through acquired property, capital improvements, etc. the benefit or equity per citizen. Then you also have the issue that not all Dayton citizens are property tax payers. I'm not sure everyone understands the taxes we're speaking of are not sales tax therefore do not effect all citizens.
Here's my agreement part: I think you need to look at the income vs expenditure financials at the end of the golf season. It's the most reasonable time to assess the situation and compare apples to apples. It also gives you time to have discussions about responsible spening and start budget preperation in January for the next fiscal year.
I also agree the city can come through this civily. I doubt we'll to come to a 99% agreement. We'll have to work through the discussions and realize some people (maybe even 49%) will be unhappy on one side of the issue or the other.
I also agree the vile posts do not get any of us anywhere. Negativity instantly makes others defensive and it's a snowball effect.
It's another beautiful day. Enjoy!!!
I hope through all this that the city administration acts accordingly and does not take any detrimental positions against any persons that may have a different view than theirs. I feel that they have the responsibility to be non biased. If there are any complaints of retaliation, they should be looked at as criminal acts.
ReplyDeleteThe retaliation never ends. I cannot believe that our little town has gone this far on it's quest for control. I think it is shameful. It is becoming more wide spread. I think if you are looking at retaliating against others I would look within yourself before judgements are made.
ReplyDeletePeople can view retaliation to mean many different things. People on both sides of the issue feel or claim they are being retaliated against. The feelings go both way.
ReplyDeleteTreat others with dignity and respect while speaking your peace. Maybe it will become more contagious than the negativity.
Dayton Taxpayer: I do treat people with dignity and respect. I will continue to do this but so far it hasn't become contagious. I will continue to speak my piece and hopefully someday there will be peace.
ReplyDeleteDayton Taxpayer: Hopefully all the numbers are public record and have not been fudged, I know this would not happen in this honest little town, but I do think that we, the citizens have not been told the truth about these numbers. In the end, we will know the true numbers because we know we can ask for them now, and the city has to release them to us. See what happens when people are lied to. They start to take action to make their goverment more responsible. And it will happen in Nov.
ReplyDeleteTo 1:26 anonymous post. I've been encouraging people to become more active in their local government. Not only does that keep local government elected officials accountable but as voters we are also responsible to participate in OUR local government and ask questions.
ReplyDeleteI am not lying to you. I personally do not believe city officials, councils and boards are lying - but that's your feeling so I can respect your feelings if you respect mine. And I'm glad you are getting the information you feel you need.
My problem is when people do not witness something, hear someone else's interpretation of what might of happened, put their own spin on what they think they heard probably happened, the next person has their own interpretation of what now DID happen. All the sudden something has taken on a life of it's own. Remember the telephone game in school?
Go to the meetings. Personally talk to our council members - even the ones who have opposing views. Participate while treating those with opposing views with respect. Nobody is entitled to harass someone else for opposing views. You might win some, you might lose some. It's part of the democratic system.
I remember the game, but there have been problems in some aspects of our city government that I do have proof and it's not hearsay. I do check out my facts before I post. I will be going to meetings. I am very interested in law, and government and am educated in this, so I will be interested to see what is going on in Dayton.
ReplyDeleteRobyn: I am glad the golf course had a good day, because we need to make LOTs of money to pay off the huge debt that we have incurred.
ReplyDeleteDayton Taxpayer: Good last post. I too remember that game. Amazing how stories change with just a few re-tellings. I am not sure whether or not any city officials are lying. But many times what no one says speaks volumes.
ReplyDeleteI agree Robin, it was a great day at the course. I personaly golfed in the tourney and the course looked great.
ReplyDeleteI wish I would have got my butt in gear and put a team together so I could have golfed today. However, I stopped out briefly and it was so busy I couldn't find a parking space.
ReplyDeleteCHA-CHING$$$ That's good for everyone!!!
Maybe some of you people who hate the golf couse should of come out today to see how much people really appreciate having the course, instead of sitting at your computers and blogging all day.
ReplyDeleteHow do you know that we were not there? For your information I was not blogging today. I was working on a project all day that promotes safety, it is a pet project I have had since experiencing a tragic occurance. So you can judge me for the awful person that you think I am for disagreeing with you, or for wanting lowered taxes. I made a promise to myself and someone who was very close to me years ago I would work for the betterment of people. I challenged myself in doing this for many many years. It may not be what you believie in, but it is what I believe in. Please DO NOT judge others unless you have walked in their shoes. I am sure that there are many different reasons and emotions that drive everyone to what they want for the Golf Course. Please take a look at yourself and see what good you have accomplished today.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't blogging either, I was out in the timber mushroom hunting, enjoying the beautiful weather and not thinking about how much money the golf course took away from other things that Dayton needed.
ReplyDeleteTo 7:20 Post: I don't hate the golf course, and hate is a very powerful feeling. I don't feel good about spending more money on frivalous things when it can be spent on necessities. And I don't like the city spending most of its money on 35 to 40 members on the golf course while it doesn't look after the citizens of Dayton.
ReplyDeleteTry again, it's not the members who are enjoying the golf course, did you not hear that 22 teams were playing today. Thats more golfers than 35 to 40 members enjoying this course today.
ReplyDeleteWhile there were 22 teams playing today, it was a tournament day that usually brings in more people. I think there were ~40 members of the golf course last year that live in Dayton, which may be what 8:29PM is referring to. I agree with you that 22 teams is greater than 35 to 40 members, 8:29 may be looking at the overall season.
ReplyDeleteNo doubt about it, today was a good day and I was glad to see people out there. Time will tell if the golf course cuts costs and increases revenue because fact of the matter is that there is still a lot of debt to pay off.
I saw the membership list for last year an no there were not 40 members there were 36 members that are from Dayton. It was a good day for the course, I congratulate them, but it will take many more like this, with other factors to recoups enough to break even and pay off the large debt load. So keep up these kind of days and cutting costs.
ReplyDelete8:44 pm, you need to look at it as a constant to increase the revenue. Sure today was wonderful but it also was many golf courses around the area. I drove by Don Williams and they were packed. I do wish the Golf Course well, but it will take more than one day.
ReplyDeleteI was just wondering why the ladies that play cards at the golf course need to pay a yearly fee, but the men who play cards don't? Does anyone know why.
ReplyDeleteI agree Datyon Tiger, that is not fair at all. Maybe someone on here could answer that for us.
ReplyDeleteI really wish someone could explain this to me about charging the ladies and not the men to play cards. I would like to understand the reasoning. In my opnion I thought it would be great pr not to charge the ladies, unless there is reason that I do not know. Thanks
ReplyDeleteThe ladies' vs. mens' card fees is an interesting question--and I'll find the answer and get back to you. I think the ladies involve a meal--but I'm not sure of that. Let me find out and get back to you. kendra
ReplyDeleteThank you Kendra for checking into this for me. It was seemed strange that one was charged and the other not. I heard it was because the guys bought alcohol. I was hoping that wasn't the reason. I thought it would be a good pr move not to charge either group if that was the reason and would be a good pr move. I know I have proposed increasing income but sometimes it helps to give a little to get a little.
ReplyDeleteThe official answer: The guys golf and then play cards--therefore, they all have a membership and asking them to pay for cards would be a sort of "double dipping." The ladies don't golf and bring their own snacks (although I think Cindy said something about cooking for them--maybe that was proposed)--so their fee is kind of a social membership.
ReplyDeleteFirst, thank you for responding. I understand about the double dipping of the gentlemen. I noticed when I saw the list of ladies that most them probably golfed for years. I still wonder if Cindy doesn't need to cook their snacks if it would be a nice PR move. Then maybe if they didn't pay the fee they would eat lunch or have Cindy prepare their snacks and the club would still be receiving a profit and would have accomplished a great PR move. Just a thought.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you about PR and I'll make that suggestion to the park board
ReplyDeleteThanks, Good luck with you garage sale.
ReplyDelete