Monday, April 13, 2009

Monday's Thoughts

I hope all of you had a safe and enjoyable Easter weekend. There was quite a bit of reaction to my posts last Wednesday and Thursday relating to the open meetings and open records laws of Iowa, and I wanted to take the time to opine about some of the comments.

Some comments stated that we should not nit-pick over these formalities that are the law and that the only point to contending that proper notice was not given was to cause unnecessary problems.

Here's the problem with this mindset: The city of Dayton falls under Chapter 21 and 22 of the Iowa code, no matter how small Dayton is. The open meetings laws are in effect so the citizens have easy access to the rationale and basis of governmental decisions. Hence, the reason for the 24 hour notice requirement for the tentative agenda. The 24 hour notice allows the citizens to see what is on the agenda and have the opportunity to speak at the meeting if the agenda has an item of importance on it. On the other hand, citizens may not get the opportunity to be heard if the agenda is changed right before the meeting.

Some comments argued that permit holders are at the mercy of the contractor's schedule and that a permit may have had to been issued asap. If this is the case, Iowa Code 21.4 allows an exemption to the public notice requirement for good cause, as well as noting the reason for the good cause in the city council minutes. For example, if the contractor had to start asap or else the project would be put on the back burner for 3 months. This would be an instance in which good cause could be shown and noted in the city council meeting minutes.

Another argument: Interpretation is the legal system in a nutshell. There is not too much interpretation that needs to be done with regards to 21.4. The city council meeting on Wednesday night was an open session that required the tentative agenda to be posted 24 hours before the start of the meeting. Please see the iowaleague.org link I made available in my last post (page 5).

Some say this is nit-picky. I disagree. This is a very slippery slope if we start allowing this to happen. Items may start to get put on the agenda right before meetings (the items without good cause), which does not allow concerned citizens to be part of the governmental decision making process. Furthermore, this kind of action does not allow a citizen the opportunity to challenge a permit that may impede on that citizen's property line.

Iowa Codes 21 and 22 were enacted to give us the power to watch over our city council and make the city council's rationale and decision making open to us, as well as all of the public records to any who wish to look over them.

58 comments:

  1. O.K. folks, maybe we should start obeying the laws instead of looking for votes at the Nov. elections.

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  2. I know how I will be voting in Nov., for the ones who follow the rules and don't look for outs and make excuses.

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  3. Dost thou think we might have some new faces on the council? I will definately be voting in November as well. Who is up for re-election this year?

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  4. Thanks to those of you who serve on the city council and thank you to the Mayor. I appreciate your willingness to volunteer and serve.

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  5. I also want to thank all of the city council members and all of those who serve in these positions. We need to remember that they make a choice to run in an election for these positions and as we see in all of politics it is not an easy position. They do get paid a small amount for their meetings so I don't feel it is volunteer, but it is not very much for what most have to deal with at least on the local level.

    Do remember to vote this year as we may need some new faces. I remember for years it seemed to be the same people I believe they had a nickname. The Dayton M____a.

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  6. I hope that the first couple of posts get off their butts and put their name on the ballot. It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. What I'm saying is PUT up or SHUT up.

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  7. How do you know they haven't? Also how do you know if it is feasible for them to run? Just saying.

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  8. I AM SURE, there will be more running in
    Nov. and probably some that are posting here.
    I am sure some will PUT their names and reputations and intelligence out there to help the city of Dayton. Thanks!!!!!

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  9. You know what is so wonderful about this blog, we get to continue to communicate without everyone know who each other is. That is also what is wonderful with the voting system in our country. No one knows how we vote because we go in the booth privately. So it's interesting that someone could tell you they feel one way about the issues in Dayton right now but then they blog another way. It also goes the same when you vote, you can tell someone you are going to vote one way but may not when you actually vote. Just an interesting comment.

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  10. I HAVE ONE QUESTION. WHAT is WRONG with following the LAW and being HONNEST is that lost in DAYTON??? Is it POWER??? WHAT is IT?

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  11. Partial answer to your question about what is wrong with following the law and honesty.

    If you are going to nit pick about laws and take them to the extreme on some items, those items that serve your interest; then someone else is going to nit pick you on laws and items that may not serve your interest.

    There are all sorts of Iowa codes and open meeting laws. There are all sorts of laws period. If you are going to hold people to the letter of the law 100% of the time, you better make sure your own hallo has never slipped. If you're going to post links to some websites you want people to see, someone else might post a link to another website you didn't want them to see.

    My other partial answer to your question; in the grand scheme of things, these issues are not as grandios as they appear on this blog. Take a break for a while and take a deep breath. You might get a better perspective on things.

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  12. So what's so bad about following these open meeting laws? Here's my assumption from previous posts: People point out these things and they get called nitpicks, so apparently there is no other reason to bring it up. I personally don't see any reason anyone would be upset this issue was brought up.

    Secondly, of course no one is perfect. So saying we all better make sure our halos have never slipped is fairly meaningless (and somewhat of a threat). Another thing is, while these things may not be very gradios, they can be very important things to a small town and if these blog gets more people active that a very good thing. Personally I love policy and politics so I love following this stuff.

    Here is a nitpick note. I understand capitalizing words gives emphasis to them. But as an adult I think I can get people's points without seven words capitalized and three exclamation points.

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  13. Well to nitpick, I would like to ask, if the little things are not being followed then how many things on a larger scale have now been done legally? It makes one ponder. I also agree with Dayton Flyer about halos slipping.
    I think that if you let your halo slip once you should not make a habit of pushing it back up repeated times.

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  14. Correction to 4:oo pm post:
    I would like to ask, if the little things are not being followed then how many things on a larger scale have been done with illegally?

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  15. The halo comment was not a threat. And it was all I could do not to capitalize that and add thre exclamation points.

    To agree with Dayton Flyer, of course no one is perfect. The tone of these posts are extremely critical and have the undertone that no mistakes are to be made. I seriously doubt the people posting on here could meet the same criteria they are juding others by. Some people might think differently if they had the guts to put their necks out there and be judged in the same way.

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  16. Some people have stuck their necks out and
    have been judged. Not all of the posts have been critical, there has been very little name calling. I think there was more name calling and negativity in the DR than there has been on this blog. What I love about this blog is that it keeps people informed. I don't think we need to take a break. We need to remain well educated on all issues.

    As far as the open meeting laws, I served on several open meeting boards over the years and we were educated on how they were to be handled. The board leader shared the rules with us so that we could remain in compliance as much as possible, as pointed out by Attorney Tom Miller, ignorance is not an excuse. So it is better to stay abreast of problems and continue to learn so to prevent problems and misconceptions.

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  17. I was going to take a break from this! Like the Dayton Flyer, I too enjoy following politics so I keep reading; even though I don't like the manner in which it's being handled (that we disagree on).

    But today I did see something potentially positive! An idea I too have thought of and wanted to discuss.

    Education regarding open meeting laws could be a great thing! I'm not only talking about education for our council members but education for the community too.

    I also have numerous years (15+) experience with elected and appointed councils. In these cases there is also a leader who shares the rules and TRIES to keep the board in compliance (a task much more difficult than it appears).

    There are also Robert's Rules of Order and rules of decorum. It is in the best interest to stick to these rules in open meetings.

    Many comments on here are made out of assumptions. Other comments are made from personal interpretations off something read on the internet. Sometimes you need a credible compus to guide you through these things.

    There are some fears on here taking a life of their own that all sorts of illegal things may be happening on a larger scale. Remember an attorney hired by the city is sitting in these meetings. That's not 100% safety but it is a safety net of sorts to ensure the council operates within the law to a certain degree.

    And, BEFORE YOU SAY IT, I'm sure you can find a lawyer who will tell you something different than the city's. I'm also sure I can find you 6 different CPAs that will give you 6 different figures on your tax return this year. Point being, you have to pick someone and then go with it.

    It's also important to remember, it's not in any of our interest to keep the council constantly tied up in red tape when it's of little consequence. I am not suggesting ignoring violations of the law. In the best interest of keeping things moving and making the best use of our money, you have to take things into perspective. Mistakes happen, you hope they are small, learn from them, move on. Large mistakes made out of malace or recklessness are the ones to focus on.

    Wasn't I taking a break from this? That was long winded, sorry. Anyway, think about the education on open meeting laws, Robert's Rules and Rules of decorum...for the community too. This could be a positive thing.

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  18. Well said Taxpayer!! Everyone should read this post a couple of times. It makes the most sense out of all the blogs on this subject.

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  19. Robert's Rules are not very difficult to follow, at least from my experience. The meetings I've attended that have had moments get out of hand weren't caused by violation of Robert's Rules, but rather violations of common courtesy and respect.

    About worrying about unnecessary things: I'm not one to believe a huge amount of outlandish things, but a great way to secure that these things won't happen is to not just let little things slide.

    About tying the council up in red tape, I don't see how this blog is doing that. I don't at all. This is something that deservedly should be brought to the council's attention.

    Finally a couple questions. Is the attorney that is at the meetings (how many does he actually go to?) the city attorney or the mayor's attorney? Then what statements that have been made are assumptions? If you feel there are incorrect assumptions being made then call it out.

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  20. Taxpayer, I don't believe Robert't Rules decides court cases, I think it is case law and adherence to the Code of Iowa. I think you want us to all look away and not see that the city council and the mayor might be breaking the law. I think this blog has opened our eyes to how we are being manipulated. Have a great evening.

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  21. I am very capable of reading this post one time and understanding this. I agree education is a wonderful tool. The board must be educated, the sooner the better as I don't understand why this didn't happen before. The community can be educated. I agree this was a goood post but I also think there have been other good posts on this blog. That is the reason I want it to continue. For some reason I keep hearing in some posts that this blog should stop. I feel this is important. It has brought many issues to light that otherwise would not have been known.

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  22. Blah, Blah, Blah,

    Let's move onto a new subject, We've beaten this one to death. It's well established that some bloggers think the council is nothing but a bunch of lawbreakers and some bloogers think they're angels. No one on either side of this issue is going to change the other sides mind. So lets move on!!!

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  23. Fine we'll move on. When are the roads going to get repaired?

    lol

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  24. Good question. Probably when we get the New Generator, New Sewer Lagoon, New Watertreatment Plant, and the New Well, paid for.

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  25. Angels with tilted halos, or people with a hidden agenda to boost our taxes for their own enjoyment?

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  26. I think the 6:58 post is the best so far!

    To clarify though, I don't think the council is perfect or angels. They don't think that either. It's just time to get over the conspiracy theory BS, understand no council will ever be perfect, try to effect change positively, and exercise your rights as American citizens during the open meetings and when it's time to vote.

    Wait, I was agreeing with you and got off on a tangent. Sorry, you are right, MOVE ON!!!

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  27. Maybe we would all be happier living out in the county on an acreage with our own well, own generator, own lane and own sewer tank to take care of. We can each be responsible for paying for it on our own. We can all pay for repairing it on our own. We can also enjoy our solitude for free.

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  28. I have a relative that lives in the country this way and their cost of living is more reasonable than what is living in Dayton. They do enjoy their solitude. Their taxes are cheaper than mine on a house that is worth a lot more.

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  29. Dayton TaxPayer: What would Robert's Rules say about Blah, Blah, Blah? That was a very adult statement. I disagree that was not the best blog I have read on here. So I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. Let's talk about the roads and how the meeting went last night of the Park and Rec Board.

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  30. I wasn't joking. I'm sure your relatives are living cheaper and their property values are higher. I was very serious.
    There are persons who are not going to be happy if they are paying a nickle in taxes they personally didn't make they decision about how they are distributed. They are also never going to be happy with the way the way any town is managed unless it's their way.
    Truly, I think some of these people would be happier in the country.

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  31. I'm sorry. I also agree it would be nice to live in the solitude they have.

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  32. Maybe we can rent out the golf course for cattle pasture and make some money.

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  33. In response to the below post:

    Anonymous said...
    Good question. Probably when we get the New Generator, New Sewer Lagoon, New Watertreatment Plant, and the New Well, paid for.

    April 14, 2009 7:04 PM

    You forgot to add the cost of the golf course in that. For those of you interested there is supposed to be meeting of the light board tomorrow morning. Discussion is about giving the golf course $25,000. By the way our electric rates are set to go up 9%, but we have the money to give to the golf course. To those of you talking about the open meeting laws. There are courses provided I believe by the state for council members and mayors. Maybe we should send them to these courses. One more little detail. The new well is having problems getting going. Seems that the machine broke down and they will need to call in someone to get through some rock. Seems we could have used some money for that unforseen problem.

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  34. I don't think your city attorney is a credible compass. I believe you should get a new one, maybe you would be sent in a better direction.

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  35. Why don't we just sell or rent all the city parks? Then we wouldn't have to spend a dime for people to go enjoy the outdoors. Wouldn't that be wonderful! Then we could sell the generator, and freeze our behinds off in the winter when the power goes off. We could sell all the ground around the rodeo arena, and forget about having a rodeo that would save the city some money. And as long as we're at it, let's just stop spending money on the water treatment plant and we could drink bad water. And again Blah,Blah,blah. Let's move on.

    If you don't like town living or just like to complain. How about you move to the country and you can talk to yourself about all your problems.

    Hey Dayton Observer how about a new post so we can talk about something constructive!

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  36. I don't think we've had an attorney as long as I've been around here, that someone hasn't wanted to get rid of because he didn't agree with what they thought. If we replace this one, people will want the new one replaced. We all need to come to the reality that everyones not going to agree on everthing. That one group is getting more than some other one. And that the group they belong to is right and everyone else is wrong.

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  37. To 8:26 What is so bad about talking about this stuff? To put it bluntly why are we dumping money in recreation when so many basic needs are not being met? No I am not just complaining to complain, it is so maybe, just maybe someone can get a handle on the fiscal problems we have. If we can't afford water or roads or electricity, we sure don't need a place to golf. If you want to move on, then do so, but lets don't just sweep this under the rug and watch our taxes go up again.

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  38. To 8:39

    What basic needs are you talking about. The roads are the only thing left for us to replace. And if you think Dayton is the only town/city that's having trouble paying for streets, you need to get out of town more, Nobody has perfect streets, some don't have streets as good as ours.

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  39. 8:24 pm post. I thought we were going to be more positive. I could tell you that I actually heard of someone who does have the money that said they would buy the golf course for pasture and rent out the club house as a house. I laughed when I heard this because I didn't think it was realistic. I do not want increased taxes and have argued this all along. I also would like to see the golf course make it. But it's going to take a lot of work. Sorry to tell you but if the amount of people that do not want increased taxes moved out of Dayton, the town would cease to exist.

    If everyone left that disagrees with you then you would not have accomplished anything.
    Blah, Blah, Blah. is very positive. I know it made me think twice about your blog.

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  40. So far this week I have been to: Des Moines, Ames, Ogden, Stratford, Lehigh, Duncombe, Webster City, Fort Dodge, Coalville, Otho...I know I'm missing some.
    Nobody wants our roads repaired more than me. Because of this, I paid close attention while traveling through these towns. Their roads are no better or worse than ours. Also, the streets around my house were terrible before the city took over the golf course.
    I'm all for having a constructive conversation about road repair. Like I said, you have no idea how much I would like Dayton's roads repaired. Part of that conversation we have to realize every town in central Iowa has roads in bad repair. Maybe we can find a solution the others haven't.
    My opinon-the golf course does a lot of good for this town. You don't have to agree. I'm not going to debate over the golf course being the spawn of hell and we would all magically have better roads, water and cheaper electricity along with lower taxes if it went away. That's not reality.
    Constructive question; has anyone checked into the economic stimulus money to see if that can help with road repair?

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  41. To 8:49 pm. I think water is a pretty basic need. I do go out of town a lot I have not seen any streets in as bad of shape that are budgeted 10,000. for repairs and I have check with other cities about their street budgets. They are all way above ours.

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  42. to post 8:51

    The reason for the blah,blah,blah, is we've had the same points made (from both sides)over and over and over. No one's going to change their minds, the positions are the same as when this subjest was brought up. LET'S MOVE ON!

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  43. Sam Adams, Do you know anything else about the light board and lending money to the golf course. It does seem strange to be doing this.
    I know the 9% increase was from our provider because of not selling electricity from the generator any longer. I would think the golf course could make due with their budget. I know I have to make due with mine.

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  44. to 8:55

    try any side street in fort dodge. drive up 1st Ave. North downtown, I'm not sure we have a street that is that bad. And that's one of the main roads downtown. I'm not saying that we don't need street improvements, my point was we're not the only ones in this situation.

    We haven't been able to budget much for streets for quite a few years. I believe our past street budgets have not been more than about $30,000-$40,000.

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  45. About the $25,000 from the light board. I know nothing about this. I haven't heard anything about this.

    Al

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  46. I guess I haven't seen roads as consistently poor as in Dayton. How long has the one patch of road had the two road signs blocking it? Also it seems about half the roads in town I have to zig-zag to not bottom out. I realize Fort Dodge has some poor roads too, but they are at least working on some of them.

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  47. The road with the two signs has been that way since around Feb.

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  48. Sam Adams, can you tell us where you got this information about the $25,000. We'd like to think you post credible information.

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  49. So if we already lost about 107,000 dollars at the golf course and we borrow another 25,000 from the light board, does that mean that we lost 132,000 in the first year of operation. does that spell success?

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  50. The road with the two signs is a traffic hazard. I have seen people confused how to go throught this intersection, whether to go to the right or go the left. I also wonder how the people that live on the corner like their grass being driven on.

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  51. To the person asking what basic needs I was speaking of. Water, electrictiy, and roads. We are trying to put in a new well that has run into a snag that will cost more than we thought. Electricity is going up due to not getting credits for the backup system any longer. We have debt to pay off due to the new generators that we did need. I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is not the golf course per se, but the fact they have basically eaten our whole budget this year. $250,000 give or take. In answer to the the below quote from earlier.

    "My opinon-the golf course does a lot of good for this town."

    Exactly what good does the golf course do? It is so far a big money pit. The rodeo draws a lot of people to this town. It basically pays it own way. How many outsiders does the golf course draw? On top of that there are approximately 30 dues paying members or household members from Dayton. But the rest of us pay taxes for it. The other 70 or so live out of town and don't even pay the taxes to pay the note that we have for buying it. I would have no problem with it if the rest of our needed things were met. Sure we need help with streets. Not this year. What about the new well that is going to cost more now? Seems to me the $250,000 that went on the hill could have been used elsewhere with much better results. To those of you who want to move on, do so. Don't let the door hit you on the way out of the blog. It is good to keep things in the open.

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  52. Al, apparently the light board has approved $25,000 to the golf course. Not sure if it was paid to them last year or not. There is supposed to be a meeting in the morning about it. Check it out. If I am wrong about it, let me know on here. I do know some money was promised at one time. If someone goes to the meeting please let us know here. Like I always have said, if I am mistaken about any thing I say I will be happy to admit I am wrong. NO PROBLEM. And yes I used caps to empasize it.

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  53. to post 9:20

    I don't think you can say the golf course lost $107,000. There were I think 60,000+ in improvements done to the clubhouse which increases the value of the property. Just like if you invested money in your house, you wouldn't say you lost that money you would say you invested in your property. But it did lose money. The only other thing I would point out is that the year doesn't end until July 1 of this year. So, the loss at the end of the fiscal could be less than what has been qouted by people.

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  54. I disagree. Know that there were capital improvements of 60,000. That is usually broken down over a number of years. But 60,000 was spent and did that really increase the worth of the golf course by 60,0000? Only certain things increase the value of your house and in this market and economy I don't actually think we can look at this as a increase in value of the property. I am really upset to think that there would be 25,000 lent to the golf course. If the fiscal year ends in July and you are saying it might not be as bad then why is 25,000 needed? We are paying 9% more for electricity, and I understand why that is needed, I don't think this is the time to lend money out to the Golf Course.

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  55. But if you invested 60,000 in your house and you can't sell it and recoup your invested money, then you lost your 60,000. It doesn't take 6 cpa's to prove that to you. If you believe that, Dayton might have a golf course for sale.

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  56. Let's just assume for right now, since no one knows whether this is true or not, since this is speculative, I don't think it is worth discussing. Let's find out for sure then discuss it. And as far as the improvements, I disagree with you on that, you CAN count it as improved value. If you had it appraised after the improvements it will be valued higher. And this market/economy will not last forever.

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  57. to 9:41

    Maybe the golfcourse will be for sale someday. Say what you want But, right now if you had an appraisal done it would add value to the property. And that's the point. Not whether you'd recoup it right away but, that it increased in value.

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  58. Everyone better read the new posting by D.O.
    It's pretty interesting.

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