I wanted to take a second to respond to recent comment tonight:
"The part I disagree with is 'The Dayton Observer' is posting his biased opinons as fact."
I am not posting my opinions as fact. I am posting my opinions as opinions.
Also, in my original post, I stated the purpose of this blog was to give a voice to everyone in Dayton. In that regard, I believe I have succeeded.
I feel that this is a very important issue in Dayton, and I post my opinions which serves as a mechanism for debate. Too many times a person's political speech is quelled because he or she is afraid of retaliaiton. That's why I allow everyone to post here anonymously. This is the perfect forum to allow one to participate in an issue so important to a community. If you disagree with my opinions, I respect that. However, I will continue to give a voice to everyone in Dayton if he or she chooses.
Finally, if you do not think your side is being presented fairly then please e-mail me at dayton.observer@gmail.com with a text of your arguments. I will be more than happy to post your argument on the front page of the Dayton Observer. You do not have to include your name. All you have to do is create a free gmail account under a pseudo name and e-mail me your arguments. I will not alter your argument in any way, just a simple cut and paste. We can consider it a Letter to the Dayton Observer.
Please keep up the good work. You are fulfilling a very important need in this town. That is an unbiased forum to allow anyone to speak their mind. I am behind you 100%.
ReplyDeleteI posted as anonymous yesterday and said I might pick a name today. I've chosen "Dayton Taxpayer". I have a variety of comments to make, not all pertaining to the golf course. I do have a life though I have to get on with so I'll have to post them here and there along with responses to responses.
ReplyDeleteAn election was held and 70% of voting Dayton citicens voted for the city to take ownership of the golf course. Lots of information was out there on either side. I've heard the argument "if some of the voters had different information they may have voted differently". You can say that with ANY election. Nobody knows what the future holds, what the economy will do, what effects the results of an election will hold; the point is the democratic process took place and the voting is over...The City of Dayton owns a golf course.
The City of Dayton is using some of MY MONEY to run this business. The city council is acting as a board of trustees to that business. My expectation of the city council now is to make every effort for the business to succeed. I do NOT approve of actions or comments by any members of the city council that sabotage the success or viability of this business. Now, before my words get twisted, let me explain.
Yes, at budget time we should receive information from the City Council on the financial situation of the Golf Course. This information needs to be in a NON-BIASED form that is easy to understand. We should also receive some type of business plan for the following year along with projected expenses and income.
At budget time, if some of the City Council members have concerns, BY ALL MEANS, I expect them to speak up as a voice for the taxpayers. If the citizens and/or City Council chose to take actions on those comments, that is the correct process. IT ENDS THERE!!!
Once it is decided the city will continue to own and operate the golf course for the following year, ALL City Council members hear me now, I hold you responsible that ALL of your actions and ALL of your words will promote the success of the golf course.
What upests me is some of the very recent actions of the council in unreasonable delays in implimenting the Parks and Rec board. Implimenting a sub-committee to manage the golf course along with all of the other Dayton parks was a good business decision. We as taxpayers know then the finances along with all other activities of our parks are being focused on. The City Council oversees the city like a broad umbrella and its unreasonable to expect them to rountinely focus on the golf course and produce success.
Intentional delays of implimenting the board was NOT a good move. I also believe the concerns voiced over the legalities of implimenting the board was just a facade based on other events that happen at the city council that put the city in serious jeapordy of law suit, but of course those legalities don't concern the same board members who were concerned about the legalities on this subject.
It was a tough decision for all of Dayton's taxpayers and voters to decide if the golf course was a reasonable risk. Regardless of how you or I voted, the vote is over and we must manage the results. Your using MY/OUR money for a business at this time you are obligated to own, like it or not; so MANAGE FOR SUCCESS!
"An election was held and 70% of voting Dayton citicens voted for the city to take ownership of the golf course."
ReplyDeleteHow many registered voters are there in Dayton? Because only about 10% of the town voted, with 70% voting for.
"How many registered voters are there in Datyton? Because only about 10% of the town voted, iwth 70% voting for."
ReplyDeleteWho's fault is that?
If someone is not going to exercise their right to vote, then they shouldn't exercise their right to complain about the results.
I'm guessing Dayton doesn't get a better turn out on most city elections. I understand you are unhappy with the results. Everyone had the same opportunity to exerise their right to vote. You aren't always going to get what you want. Next time I may not end up getting what I want. That's part of living in the US. Be happy you have the opportunities you do.
Can you not agree that regardless if 30% who voted disagreed or some of the council members disagreed with the city owning and operating the golf course; now that we have the business it is in the best interest of all the taxpayers that we give it the best opportunity to succeed?
DaytonFlyer you are correct approximately only 10 % of citizens of Dayton voted on this golf course purchase. I still have all of the Reviews for that time period and all of the letters to the editor and the reporting was all very positive towards the purchase. To bad this bloog was not around then. It was an emotional time.
ReplyDeleteDayton Tax Payer: I am also a tax payer in the City of Dayton. I feel that if these discussions were not held and that the council would have voted 100% at all times some very important issues would not have been brought up. This can be shown by the difficulty of obtaining correct (or should I say figures regarding the golf course that were always the same) from a book keeping standpoint these should have been easily attainable if there would have been a good business plan and a budget for the first year of operation of the golf course.
I would be very happy if the golf course could make money or even break even. As far as asking people on the council or the citizens of Dayton to only make comments promoting the golf course is unreasonable. I have worked and
ran a business in town. Some of my best monitors and public relations came from some of the people that critized or brought concerns to me. Then I reasonably looked at these and made changes as needed.
You can never close your mind to new alternatives and measures to help your business or the city.
I believe this is how you MANAGE FOR SUCCESS!
So in these aspects I disagree with your
demand to have people only say positive aspects.
As far as the legalities. I do not feel this
was a way to put off the vote. I feel these needed to be raised so that all side were being looked at. I am very appreciative of whomever started this blog because I feel it has educated and help bring both sides concerns to light.
Yes the voting is over but, there needs to be a good business plan and that includes the possibility that if the golf course continues to lose money after this something needs be done. I also feel by several of the choices for the golf rec board it also appeared to be
just another case of I'm in charge and I will do what I want to.
Does'nt matter if 10% or 50% or 100% voted it still passed. It's time to get busy and make it work. There's people saying that they haven't seen the figures or have seen false info, It's all available all you have to do is ask. Since only 10% voted, maybe this will get people off thier butts to go vote. So, If you didn't bother to vote, you have no right to complain.
ReplyDeleteOK, by the above comments it's clear I'm responding to a city council member...
ReplyDeleteI'm not asking the citizens of Dayton to always positively promote the golf course; I'm asking the elected officials of Dayton to positively promote a business owned by the city.
I'm not asking you to go buy memberships. I'm asking you to give the golf course the best opportunity to succeed. I can't believe all of your motives are for the golf course to break even or make money when it is so transparent some of your actions are meant to be destructive.
GOOD GRIEF! Give the Parks and Rec members a chance! You have some of the members judged and crucified before they've even met.
I totally agree with you on the business plan. Maybe there needs to be more discussions if the golf course continues to lose money after a reasonable amount of time is given for it to succeed. March is too darn late! You gotta be hitting the ground running in March as far as the golf course is concerned. These discussions needed to take place in the fall and winter with a conclusion made to go forward or not in February at the latest. Once it was decided for the city to continue to go forward...the city council has back it 100%.
If you feel it's a failure, speak your concerns between November and February. Maybe the decision will be made to change the city's arrangements. Maybe that's the way it has to be. If it's decided to continue to own and operate, once again your actions have to support success.
"You can never close your mind to new alternatives or measures to make your business to succeed." We are in total agreement. Why are you not practicing what you preach?
Listen, I appreciate the fact you are willing to serve on the city council. It's a thankless job and you have to vote your convictions. You can do this and also be positive and constructive. Our exchange has been heated and emotional. I apologize. I only ask you consider my opinon as a tax payer who supports the golf course as you are also considering the tax payer opinions who do not support the golf course. Thank you sir.
Sorry to disappoint you but I am not a City Council member nor have I ever been.
ReplyDeleteIt's ironical because I thought you were a City Council member.
I'm sorry that I disagree with some of your points but that is human nature. I also believe in giving the board a chance but I also have the right to voice my opinons regarding such choices as you have in judging the current City Council members.
Very lively today. All posting seem to me to have valid points to make. Yes we own it and now should try to get it to work. However I don't think the voters had the big picture when it was up for vote. Did the city even get a valid audit of the books out there? That is a question, not a comment. I have never seen any evidence presented anywhere of that. The board does need a chance. But the board should not have any previous directors, council person spouses or Mayor's spouses. Is there any of those on the new board. Who by the way allocated practically the whole city budget to the golf course? That was downright stupid. They should present a budget first and then be given monies. Not here's your money let us know where it goes. I also have issues with a couple of council persons, but not Norm or Kevin. How about the one that sat and texted during a discussion on a culvert? What in God's name are they at the meeting for? Or the one that voted (question of legality here) to give her son a city job. If that ends up not flying then the board would just give him the job thereby making sure it is legal. Why do city employees have free memberships? Nothing against the employees but that is revenue that could go to the golf course. I would rather they get the cash and let them decide. And while we are at it, do the police officers have a free membership? That borders on illegal if not blatantly illegal. They are responsible for enforcing the liquor license rules, but yet might be part of the business that owns the license. As I said before if anyone can show me the facts on this I would appreciated it. I am not a lawyer, but the statutes posted about council members voting looked to me like she should have abstained which was suggested by Mr. Benson. If not out of legality, then how about out of morality. What I would like to see is an audit of the City of Dayton's books top to bottom by an independant or state auditor and then made public. We have someone accused of stealing around $1500 from the city and no audit was even done then. The Mayor should have ordered and immediate audit. If they did one I have never heard of it. And why is 2/3 of the members that we subsidize not paying taxes in the town? They should be charged a not resident fee to cover their share of our tax money we pay for them. Bet this post gets some attention.
ReplyDelete“Who's fault is that?”
ReplyDeleteNot mine, I voted against it.
“If someone is not going to exercise their right to vote, then they shouldn't exercise their right to complain about the results.”
The day wasn’t exactly a great day to vote and many assumed there cause would win. I agree people should vote, however many people can’t always vote on certain days. Also public opinion can change.
“Can you not agree that regardless if 30% who voted disagreed or some of the council members disagreed with the city owning and operating the golf course; now that we have the business it is in the best interest of all the taxpayers that we give it the best opportunity to succeed?”
I think we should, now do I think it will succeed is a different question. Also there was no line item budget presented, why not? Could the city council not act on anything before forming this golf board? Why if this council is so vital was it not brought up before? Also many were for the clubhouse staying open for the winter and I would argue that was not in the best interest of the town, but it was done. What I’m trying to say is the best interest of the taxpayer may not be continuing ownership. Options such as leasing and attempting to sell should be considered as serious options.
“OK, by the above comments it's clear I'm responding to a city council member...
"I'm not asking the citizens of Dayton to always positively promote the golf course; I'm asking the elected officials of Dayton to positively promote a business owned by the city. “
If government didn’t criticize government we would not be a country because of all the countless stupid measures that would pass. Also I imagine we should all just support everything government does, social security going bankrupt, just be positive about it and everything will work out. There will always be a place in government for people to question actions. This is needed.
“GOOD GRIEF! Give the Parks and Rec members a chance! You have some of the members judged and crucified before they've even met. “
So people have to right to criticize executive appointments? Everyone hopes the board does a great job, but maybe people don’t view the board as balanced or completely impartial from the council. We do not live in a leviathan government, so everyone has a right to question. If you felt the mayor appointed a bunch of people who just wanted to sell the course, I would fully expect to hear complaints and you would have every right to do so.
“I totally agree with you on the business plan. Maybe there needs to be more discussions if the golf course continues to lose money after a reasonable amount of time is given for it to succeed. March is too darn late! You gotta be hitting the ground running in March as far as the golf course is concerned. These discussions needed to take place in the fall and winter with a conclusion made to go forward or not in February at the latest. Once it was decided for the city to continue to go forward...the city council has back it 100%. “
If the city would have raised the town’s taxes and had a released budget before, these questions would have been raised before. I think once the town bought the course people tried to support and hoped it succeeded.
"Does'nt matter if 10% or 50% or 100% voted it still passed. It's time to get busy and make it work. There's people saying that they haven't seen the figures or have seen false info, It's all available all you have to do is ask. Since only 10% voted, maybe this will get people off thier butts to go vote. So, If you didn't bother to vote, you have no right to complain."
ReplyDeletePeople have asked for records received them and then basically been called liars because of the figures being inaccurate or because of creative accounting. Plus the mayor didn't even know if they had a line item budget.
samadams, I believe there was an audit done last year and I believe that's how they found the $1500 missing. As far as not having anyone on the new board that was on before, you need someone that at least knows a little about past decisions, and why they were made. So you don't make the same mistakes twice. If you have all virgins on the board, you could potentially go down the same path, and end up with same results. That doesn't mean that anyone will take his/her advice.
ReplyDeleteYou also questioned if all the figures were given before the city took it over, I know for a fact all finacials were presented.
Daytonflier, I also questioned the accuracy of the figures handed out at the first special meeting. The reason being, there were no inventory figures for the golf maintenance shed which includes Fertilizer and mower parts, and other Misc. or an inventory for food goods that are on hand, both big $ inventory figures. Granted these I'm sure won't ad up to the $40-50,000 loss but, it should still be on there to get an accurate figure. Potentially the figure for those two inventories could ad up to $10-20,000. I was at the meeting when it was asked about a line item budget and I didn't get the feeling that the mayor didn't know about it.
I'm glad to see that although not everyone agrees on what should be done with the golfcourse, at least it sounds like many of you are willing to give the new board a chance. Thank you. I've been reading this blog since it started, and I will tell you that many of the questions and suggestions will be brought up on the board by ME. I hope we can turn the course into a profitable venture. But, if the times comes I think the board will do what's best for the town of Dayton.
ReplyDeleteBoard member Al
What does it mean to be positive?
ReplyDeleteWhat does it mean to be negative?
What is the difference between constructive debate at the appropriate time and lack of support or sabotage?
I was very interested in some interpretations and responses to my comments about being positive and supportive along with interpretations of negativity.
Clearly, we all have different definitions of these words.
I realize I'm positing on a site that the focus is ending the city's ownership of the golf course and I feel that initiative is premature at this time; so I'm going to be disagreed with. We also have some on here who are using this as a cheerleading site for a couple board members and an attack forum for others; and as I'm not on board with that either I'm going to be disagreed with.
I'm going to ask the Dayton Observer to hold to his word and post a subject for debate, that may differ a little from his point of view but not too different that he would have a little trouble not backing this one just a little :) I'll get back to you today D.O.
For the time being I'm going to pose a question that was presented to me at work and something I've also had to do a little self audit on...
As a society, are we to tolerant of negativity?
Interesting question about negativity. Of course negativity is always the opposite of your view. I don't mean your as in you, I mean your as in if someone disagrees with me then they are negative and if I disagree with them in their eyes I am the negative person. To be negative about the golf course just because a person doesn't happen to play or has tried it and doesn't like it is wrong in my view. I myself am not negative about the golf course in that way. I could be considered negative though because I am against it for monetary reasons. At this juncture we need to let it run its course for the year. However if it loses money again or is mismanaged it is time to go. There is now doubt it failed once. Otherwise it wouldn't have become city property. I do have many negative thoughts about who appropriated basically the entire city budget for it. Last winter as brought up at a council meeting it was advised to close for the winter. The powers that be decided against valid advice and accordingly lost around $8,000 per month from 10-14 to 1-4. Those figures are from City Hall. This is where my negativity comes from. I cannot figure out why a clubhouse would stay open all winter anyway. There is not a lot of golfing going on in the winter. This leads me to believe that certain people basically want a private bar at taxpayers expense. I also still believe that the board should be new faces and also ones that are not tied to the city council people that let it stay open and lose money all winter. Doesn't take a genius to look at what has been done, that could have been wrong and not repeat that. Basically look at the books to figure that out. Actually, if the Mayor was upfront about this he should ask for at least 2 citizens not tied to this in anyway. Let them be an extra watchdog for the people. I cannot shake the feeling that the fox is still guarding the henhouse. So there would be my negativity. Not in that I hate golf, just hate losing money so a few can enjoy it. I still think a non resident fee equal to what the average household tax assessment increase will be should be charged to those not owning property in town if they want to join.
ReplyDeleteSam--I am really enjoying our debate. Even though we do not see eye to eye on some things, you've opened my eyes to somethings and made me question some opinions and take some other opinions into consideration. I think you'll really enjoy the question I posed to D.O. and hopefully he'll post it to. I hope you are enjoying our exchange also.
ReplyDeleteI agree, often people will find any opinon opposing theirs as negative. It must be human nature. Although you have several comments on here that oppose my opinion, but I don't think they are negative at all. I think they should be asked and I'm glad you did.
I'm not sure who exactly the 7 are on the Parks and Rec board, I only know a few. When I heard the Mayor's wife's name mentioned, I knew that was going to stir up some controversy and I can see why. On the other hand, Dayton is a small community. There are only limited opportunities to participate on community boards. If she is willing to volunteer her time it isn't fair she be excluded because she is married to the mayor. Also, as I understand it, she will eventually come up for election. So then the city can speak how they feel about it. I don't want to get into a personal audit of anyone's credentials, personalities or abilities on here because no one deserves it. I truly understand the concern. But she hasn't even been given a chance yet. Can we all give her the benefit of the doubt, at least for this golf season, and go from there? As far as you or I know, we will be most pleased with this selection of any of the 7.
I don't think on the off season it is negative at all to review the financials and projected financials. That's the time and it has to be done for the success of the business and the city. Some tough unpopular decisions may have to be made. My opinon is, once March hits and the decisions have been mad; give it all our best shot (within economic reson of course).
I liked the non-resident fee idea. I haven't had time to think it through or the opportunity to look at the financials and see if it's feesable. Hopefully the new Parks and Rec board will.
Once again, thanks for the constructive exchange. I wish we all could do that.
Thank you for the recent e-mail. I will be posting that e-mail later this evening.
ReplyDeleteHave an enjoyable Sunday afternoon.